Fifth gear?

[Shadowflame]

Alright guys, I've done a couple of different searches, without any luck. The question is,,,, has anyone experimented or heard of someone swapping the fifth gear out to make it a true fifth gear? My O.M. says the change between fourth and fifth gear is pretty small, I can't recall the exact number right off, but it wasn't alot. I have read on another site for the Suzuki Intruder 1400 that they too also had the same situation with the small shift for fifth. Their solution was to get a fifth gear for the Intruder LC 1500 and put it in, and it gave them a true fifth gear swap. Anybody ever try checking into the gear ratios of maybe a bigger bike, like the ace or sabre? Or maybe a custom gear to correct the fifth shift? I would just like a little better cruising rpm if possible. Thanks fuckers.

[RustyJake]

Can't say I've heard of anyone changing the gearing inside. Most go with a sprocket change on the spirit, stock being 42 teeth and most going to 39 or lower depending on the rpms you are looking for at highway speeds. This method you loose a little bottom end.
Keep us informed!

[BamaKC]

acually the tranny gearing would be a more fitting modification. With that you'd have the best of both worlds.... low end and lowered crusing rpm. The 4th to 5th kick does not significantly reduce engine rpm at 50 mph so it would only make sense to focus on that area.

This would be a money making opprotunity for some enterprising tool and die man.

[Free Spirit]

This make a hell of a lot of sense! I've been thinking about doingh the sprocket swap, but I'm a big guy and didn't want to lose the low-end performance.

[Free Spirit]

Finally, a noob bringing a great idea into the nuthouse, instead of an attitude!

[Partsguy198]

Somebody figure it out and try it before I buy a new sprocket!

[Partsguy198]

Eh?!? Which one's 5th gear?

http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/200_0318/transmission/transmission.bmp

[Free Spirit]

OohOhh... I know this one... it's... the one with the 5 next to it?!?!?... heeheehee

[Mr.Sinister]

Would it not be the biggest one?

[pegscraper]

I'm guessing that it is the one with the 5 next to it. The biggest gear. Now, is there room in there to put a bigger gear?

[Mr.Sinister]

What nobody to tell me how smart I am. Sheesh. Take your bike apart Pegs. It is not like it is running that well anyway?:rolleyes3

[Shadowflame]

From what I understand, there are two fifth gears,, first, the drive gear, which is what is supplying the driven gear. By making the drive gear smaller, and enlarging the driven gear, it changes the ratios of fifth. The trick is getting a gear set with the right splines for the gear shaft, and sizes. My '06 O.M. reports gearing as follows: Primary reduction-1.666, 1st gear-3.166, 2nd-2.00, 3rd-1.50, 4th-1.173, and fifth-1.041 with a final reduction of 2.411. The 06, and I believe everything from 04 and up, has a front sprocket of 17 teeth, and a rear sprocket of 41 teeth. Earlier SS's had 42 teeth on the rear sprocket. My stock rear tire measures about 25" tall, and the stock 41 tooth rear sprocket measured about 7 3/4" in diameter. Given a formula for figuring the speed of driving and driven pulleys, Driving RPM = (Driven pulley Dia. X driven Rpm) divided by driving pulley diameter, maybe someone smarter than me can figure some of this out. Basically, if fifth gear were more like 0.96 or so, you'd have a true fifth gear shift. It would definitely be overdrive, which is what you need on this bike. I've already changed the rear sprocket from 41 teeth to 36 teeth, (as small as I could find one), and it gave me about 12 mph, but I couldn't change the front due to clearances between the output gear and the shifter shaft. By the way, I understand that Scootworks beltdrive has a final reduction of 2.04 compared to the stock 2.411 with a chain. I know there are some smart people with engineering skills and such on here, that can understand the Driving and Driven gear ratios better than I. The other day I did all the math, and basically, guessing at the diameters of the gears I have now on the chain drive, I'm doing about 3600 rpm at 60. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure the case would have to be split to do this mod. Maybe someone with an 1100 or ace with an owners manual could tell us what ther gear ratios are, and maybe we could get something working, or custom gearset cut. Put on your thinking caps fuckers, this is gonna get deep. P.S.--- I also suspect on the drawing posted above that the gear marked 5 is the fifth Driving gear, and the gear marked 8 is the Driven gear. I'd have to tear into a transmission to get my mechanical bearings of how it exactly worked, and I ain't ready to guinea pig my bike yet. Who's got their bike in pieces right now?

[Free Spirit]

From what I understand, there are two fifth gears,, first, the drive gear, which is what is supplying the driven gear. By making the drive gear smaller, and enlarging the driven gear, it changes the ratios of fifth. The trick is getting a gear set with the right splines for the gear shaft, and sizes. My '06 O.M. reports gearing as follows: Primary reduction-1.666, 1st gear-3.166, 2nd-2.00, 3rd-1.50, 4th-1.173, and fifth-1.041 with a final reduction of 2.411. The 06, and I believe everything from 04 and up, has a front sprocket of 17 teeth, and a rear sprocket of 41 teeth. Earlier SS's had 42 teeth on the rear sprocket. My stock rear tire measures about 25" tall, and the stock 41 tooth rear sprocket measured about 7 3/4" in diameter. Given a formula for figuring the speed of driving and driven pulleys, Driving RPM = (Driven pulley Dia. X driven Rpm) divided by driving pulley diameter, maybe someone smarter than me can figure some of this out. Basically, if fifth gear were more like 0.96 or so, you'd have a true fifth gear shift. It would definitely be overdrive, which is what you need on this bike. I've already changed the rear sprocket from 41 teeth to 36 teeth, (as small as I could find one), and it gave me about 12 mph, but I couldn't change the front due to clearances between the output gear and the shifter shaft. By the way, I understand that Scootworks beltdrive has a final reduction of 2.04 compared to the stock 2.411 with a chain. I know there are some smart people with engineering skills and such on here, that can understand the Driving and Driven gear ratios better than I. The other day I did all the math, and basically, guessing at the diameters of the gears I have now on the chain drive, I'm doing about 3600 rpm at 60. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure the case would have to be split to do this mod. Maybe someone with an 1100 or ace with an owners manual could tell us what ther gear ratios are, and maybe we could get something working, or custom gearset cut. Put on your thinking caps fuckers, this is gonna get deep. P.S.--- I also suspect on the drawing posted above that the gear marked 5 is the fifth Driving gear, and the gear marked 8 is the Driven gear. I'd have to tear into a transmission to get my mechanical bearings of how it exactly worked, and I ain't ready to guinea pig my bike yet. Who's got their bike in pieces right now?

Damn, all this technical shit's got my head spinning!!!! I'm a tear-it-apart-bolt-on-the-new-goodies kinda guy. But I definitely think this is something worth chasing. Could probably even get one of our resident parts-machinst-types to make it.

[croach1]

Damn, all this technical shit's got my head spinning!!!! I'm a tear-it-apart-bolt-on-the-new-goodies kinda guy. But I definitely think this is something worth chasing. Could probably even get one of our resident parts-machinst-types to make it.

I am with you on this. I started reading and was lost in the first sentence.

[pegscraper]

Definatly would have to change 2 gears to get it to work. I was looking at the service manual last night. Hard to tell how the gears line up and if there is room for a bigger gear in there though.

[TinyUFB]

Are you guys saying there is more than one gear on our bikes?

Why the hell didnt anyone tell me before?


:freak:

[Partsguy198]

From what I understand, there are two fifth gears,, first, the drive gear, which is what is supplying the driven gear. By making the drive gear smaller, and enlarging the driven gear, it changes the ratios of fifth. The trick is getting a gear set with the right splines for the gear shaft, and sizes. My '06 O.M. reports gearing as follows: Primary reduction-1.666, 1st gear-3.166, 2nd-2.00, 3rd-1.50, 4th-1.173, and fifth-1.041 with a final reduction of 2.411. The 06, and I believe everything from 04 and up, has a front sprocket of 17 teeth, and a rear sprocket of 41 teeth. Earlier SS's had 42 teeth on the rear sprocket. My stock rear tire measures about 25" tall, and the stock 41 tooth rear sprocket measured about 7 3/4" in diameter. Given a formula for figuring the speed of driving and driven pulleys, Driving RPM = (Driven pulley Dia. X driven Rpm) divided by driving pulley diameter, maybe someone smarter than me can figure some of this out. Basically, if fifth gear were more like 0.96 or so, you'd have a true fifth gear shift. It would definitely be overdrive, which is what you need on this bike. I've already changed the rear sprocket from 41 teeth to 36 teeth, (as small as I could find one), and it gave me about 12 mph, but I couldn't change the front due to clearances between the output gear and the shifter shaft. By the way, I understand that Scootworks beltdrive has a final reduction of 2.04 compared to the stock 2.411 with a chain. I know there are some smart people with engineering skills and such on here, that can understand the Driving and Driven gear ratios better than I. The other day I did all the math, and basically, guessing at the diameters of the gears I have now on the chain drive, I'm doing about 3600 rpm at 60. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure the case would have to be split to do this mod. Maybe someone with an 1100 or ace with an owners manual could tell us what ther gear ratios are, and maybe we could get something working, or custom gearset cut. Put on your thinking caps fuckers, this is gonna get deep. P.S.--- I also suspect on the drawing posted above that the gear marked 5 is the fifth Driving gear, and the gear marked 8 is the Driven gear. I'd have to tear into a transmission to get my mechanical bearings of how it exactly worked, and I ain't ready to guinea pig my bike yet. Who's got their bike in pieces right now?

http://www.mike.lawton.clara.net/Homersweb/doh.jpg

[pegscraper]

Are you guys saying there is more than one gear on our bikes?

Why the hell didnt anyone tell me before?


:freak:

There's only one gear on your bike Tiny. That pedal is the kick starter in case your battery is dead....(like now).:laugh4:

[Shadowflame]

Actually we're not talking about bigger gears, but more like taking one tooth from one of the sprockets and adding it to the other sprocket, making one a little smaller and the other a little bigger.

In my earlier post, I may have made a mistake by saying driving gear smaller, driven bigger, when in fact, the opposite should be true, just like changing the front and rear sprocket on the chain drive. I believe the primary reduction of 1.666 is refering to the fact that for every 1 revolution of the engine, the input to the transmission spins 1.666 times, almost 2 whole turns, or could be vice-versa, that's where I need someone smarter than me, or who has already torn into their trans and engine and understands all this.

In fact, now that I really think about it, I am almost certain it is the other way around, meaning that the engine spins 1.666 times to get the trans to spin 1 time. Then, by varying each gear ration, getting smaller and smaller, You're getting closer to matching the rpm of the engine. Think about it, you couldn't hook a chain straight from the rear wheel to the engine crankshaft, You need the engine to spin faster than the rear wheel upon start off, then by shifting you acheive a closer 1to1 ratio, and possibly overdrive if you go less than one, by changing fifth to a 0.96 ratio instead of 1.04. Remember that the rest of the primary and final gearing also play a part in this math as well.

Perhaps if I sat down and really studied this, and talked to some geniuses, using all of their knowledge and none of mine,(DOH!) I (they) could figure this out. Wow I'm an idiot. At least I can baffle ya'll with bullshit-- lol. Someone help me out here.

[RAZOR]

Actually we're not talking about bigger gears, but more like taking one tooth from one of the sprockets and adding it to the other sprocket, making one a little smaller and the other a little bigger.

In my earlier post, I may have made a mistake by saying driving gear smaller, driven bigger, when in fact, the opposite should be true, just like changing the front and rear sprocket on the chain drive. I believe the primary reduction of 1.666 is refering to the fact that for every 1 revolution of the engine, the input to the transmission spins 1.666 times, almost 2 whole turns, or could be vice-versa, that's where I need someone smarter than me, or who has already torn into their trans and engine and understands all this.

In fact, now that I really think about it, I am almost certain it is the other way around, meaning that the engine spins 1.666 times to get the trans to spin 1 time. Then, by varying each gear ration, getting smaller and smaller, You're getting closer to matching the rpm of the engine. Think about it, you couldn't hook a chain straight from the rear wheel to the engine crankshaft, You need the engine to spin faster than the rear wheel upon start off, then by shifting you acheive a closer 1to1 ratio, and possibly overdrive if you go less than one, by changing fifth to a 0.96 ratio instead of 1.04. Remember that the rest of the primary and final gearing also play a part in this math as well.

Perhaps if I sat down and really studied this, and talked to some geniuses, using all of their knowledge and none of mine,(DOH!) I (they) could figure this out. Wow I'm an idiot. At least I can baffle ya'll with bullshit-- lol. Someone help me out here.


YOU MIGHT WANT TO RUN THIS BUY THE GUYS AT TSW--THERE ARE MORE
GEARHEADS OVER THERE.AND YOU MIGHT GET SOMEWHERE WITH THIS.
JUST REMEMER-IT WAS MY IDEA SOOOO I GET A CUT TOO.

[Shadowflame]

I'll give you 50% of what I get, which'll probably be 12,458,751 minus half of that times two. That should leave you with a good understanding of my earnings off of this project. With that money you could buy a bag of fuck and paint it red. LOL

[ickmak]

I'll give you 50% of what I get, which'll probably be 12,458,751 minus half of that times two. That should leave you with a good understanding of my earnings off of this project. With that money you could buy a bag of fuck and paint it red. LOL


hell yeah razor, your going to be rich. OH wait :freak:

[BamaKC]

YOU MIGHT WANT TO RUN THIS BUY THE GUYS AT TSW--THERE ARE MORE
GEARHEADS OVER THERE.AND YOU MIGHT GET SOMEWHERE WITH THIS.
JUST REMEMER-IT WAS MY IDEA SOOOO I GET A CUT TOO.

And I was early in the support for the concept so I gets a free mod kit for my ACE.

[pegscraper]

I'm still wondering if there is enough clearance for the big gear to get bigger. Can't be much room betweeen the gear and the case. I know it wouldn't be much bigger, but it still needs to have room so it doesn't hit the case. Don't know what the tolerances are and I don't have a picture of the gears in the case. This is a really good idea if it works! Lets try it on Tiny's bike! It's in my garage right now!
:lol:

Pegsisholdingtinysbikeforransom

[cryin'wolf]

I pulled a tranny out of a box and put in a case half with the forks and shift drum.
using the numbers off the assembly drawing previously posted the gears work accordingly.

1st gear: 5 & 2
Neutral
2nd gear 8 & 7
3rd gear 12 & 10
4th gear 14 & 13
5th gear 16 & 17

The gear sizes get closer to each other with each higher gear. If this doesn't make sense to any one take you bike out, keep the ignition off and try to push start you bike in first gear, then try it in 3rd or fourth, you will notice it will be easier to push in higher gears.

both shaft gears remain meshed with their counterpart, but engage their respective shafts by locking up with the dog gears (# 13, 12, 17) depending on fork to drum location which is not shown on diagram.
Input shaft gear # 2, Dog gear #13 and gear #7 are the only ones costantly engaged with the input shaft. gears #10 & 16 are free spining on bushings until locked up by Dog gear #13.

Countershaft gears #5, 14, 8 are free spining on bushings until locked up by Dog gear 12 or 17.

I hope this helps.

Cryin' Wolf

[pegscraper]

I pulled a tranny out of a box and put in a case half with the forks and shift drum.
using the numbers off the assembly drawing previously posted the gears work accordingly.

1st gear: 5 & 2
Neutral
2nd gear 8 & 7
3rd gear 12 & 10
4th gear 14 & 13
5th gear 16 & 17

The gear sizes get closer to each other with each higher gear. If this doesn't make sense to any one take you bike out, keep the ignition off and try to push start you bike in first gear, then try it in 3rd or fourth, you will notice it will be easier to push in higher gears.

both shaft gears remain meshed with their counterpart, but engage their respective shafts by locking up with the dog gears (# 4, 12, 17) depending on fork to drum location which is not shown on diagram.
Input shaft gear # 2, Dog gear #4 and gear #7 are the only ones costantly engaged with the input shaft. gears #10 & 16 are free spining on bushings until locked up by Dog gear #13.

Countershaft gears #5, 14, 8 are free spining on bushings until locked up by Dog gear 12 or 17.

I hope this helps.

Cryin' Wolf

So can the gears be exchanged? Reversed on the drive and driven shafts? Does that make any sense?

[Mr.Sinister]

Are you sayin to make 16 smaller?

[pegscraper]

I see that they are different types of gears. Scratch that idea....

[cryin'wolf]

Okay, as this is a constant mesh transmission aka synchronized, in that all gears are meshed with their counterpart, changing gears # 16 & 17 to a 1:1 is the best that can be accomplished, it appears it already has this. I'll take a picture to demonstrate. pencil indicates where gears mesh, notice they apear to be the same size.

[Mr.Sinister]

So 16 one tooth smaller and 17 one tooth bigger?

[cryin'wolf]

I'd try to make #16 larger and # 17 smaller to get more of an overdrive, but I don't think it will work. To do this on the cheap it seems if one were to acquire a second 4th gearset and swap their shaft positions it would provide the overdrive.

[Mr.Sinister]

How is the bore kit coming? Smarty pants.:grin3:

[cryin'wolf]

still in peices, but if it weren't we'd never learn about gears would we?:heh_heh:

[Mr.Sinister]

I am still all a flutter with the idea.:thumbsup:

[cryin'wolf]

Looking at the arrangement again, putting a larger gear in place of # 16 and a smaller one in place of #17 will work and provide the overdrive. I'll look further into using a readily avalable 4th gear set a see what mods the gears will have to be done.

[Mr.Sinister]

COOL! Imagine the possibilitys of a bore kit and a real overdrive.

[cryin'wolf]

Modifying a 4th gear set won't work, there are to many differences between the gear sets and inputshaft has smaller OD than counter shaft.

[Shadowflame]

HELL YEAH! Now this is what I'm talking about, we're getting somewhere. So I'm to under stand that the shafts of each gearset is different, therefore nullifying a possibility of buying another 4th gear set and swapping the arrangement around. Ok, so We'll just have to look further. Maybe if you have caliper, you can measure each gear on the fifth set, and see what we have to start with. Then we could find a website that sells custom gears, or at least find someone who can make them. I know that this mod is possible, it's just a matter of getting the right info. If you can get those diameters of the stock gearset, we can do some calculations. Great job there Wolf, I appreciate all the info. YOU DA MAN!:thumbsup:

[cryin'wolf]

input shaft dia. .975" 12 splines. splines are V cut with flat botton.

Counter shaft dia. 1.095" 15 splines V cut with flat bottom.

If you can tell me how to determine the spline pitch I'll get that info, or I can mail you item #'s 23 and 24 to use as samples, but you'll have to send them back to me.

[Shadowflame]

Did some heavy duty calculations on this tonight, If anyone knows of any websites that can make or cut gears, please let me know. By the way, does anyone know what RPM's their engine is doing at, oh say, 60, in fifth?

[Low'02spirit]

From what I understand, there are two fifth gears,, first, the drive gear, which is what is supplying the driven gear. By making the drive gear smaller, and enlarging the driven gear, it changes the ratios of fifth. The trick is getting a gear set with the right splines for the gear shaft, and sizes. My '06 O.M. reports gearing as follows: Primary reduction-1.666, 1st gear-3.166, 2nd-2.00, 3rd-1.50, 4th-1.173, and fifth-1.041 with a final reduction of 2.411. The 06, and I believe everything from 04 and up, has a front sprocket of 17 teeth, and a rear sprocket of 41 teeth. Earlier SS's had 42 teeth on the rear sprocket. My stock rear tire measures about 25" tall, and the stock 41 tooth rear sprocket measured about 7 3/4" in diameter. Given a formula for figuring the speed of driving and driven pulleys, Driving RPM = (Driven pulley Dia. X driven Rpm) divided by driving pulley diameter, maybe someone smarter than me can figure some of this out. Basically, if fifth gear were more like 0.96 or so, you'd have a true fifth gear shift. It would definitely be overdrive, which is what you need on this bike. I've already changed the rear sprocket from 41 teeth to 36 teeth, (as small as I could find one), and it gave me about 12 mph, but I couldn't change the front due to clearances between the output gear and the shifter shaft. By the way, I understand that Scootworks beltdrive has a final reduction of 2.04 compared to the stock 2.411 with a chain. I know there are some smart people with engineering skills and such on here, that can understand the Driving and Driven gear ratios better than I. The other day I did all the math, and basically, guessing at the diameters of the gears I have now on the chain drive, I'm doing about 3600 rpm at 60. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure the case would have to be split to do this mod. Maybe someone with an 1100 or ace with an owners manual could tell us what ther gear ratios are, and maybe we could get something working, or custom gearset cut. Put on your thinking caps fuckers, this is gonna get deep. P.S.--- I also suspect on the drawing posted above that the gear marked 5 is the fifth Driving gear, and the gear marked 8 is the Driven gear. I'd have to tear into a transmission to get my mechanical bearings of how it exactly worked, and I ain't ready to guinea pig my bike yet. Who's got their bike in pieces right now?39 Tooth sprocket $50
masterlink to shorten chain $5
Not having to fuck with all that bullshit you just said Priceless

[BamaKC]

39 Tooth sprocket $50
masterlink to shorten chain $5
Not having to fuck with all that bullshit you just said Priceless

Loss of low end torque... pain in the arse (no not a mispelling Airport, Canadian) :crazy3:

[Shadowflame]

Ok, doing some research on this so far. I need to know if anyone out there has or knows if anyone has, their engine and trans in pieces. Mainly looking for any type of shadows, 600,ace,1100, you name it.
Take for example, the 750 Ace has some slight variations in the transmission compared to our Spirit. I just need to know some measurements of a couple of the gears and shaft diameters. See, my thinking is, one of these various honda bikes has a gearset that we can make work, without modification, just a simple bolt in job.
I need anyone with Owners manuals that have listed the Ratio's of their transmission gears to post them. I know Airport has a Shadow, I know a few other people on here have the VLX. I need as much data as I can get. If all goes well, we'll have a simple thing that will cost less than 200 bucks, takes about a half day of work, and gives about 500 rpm. So dig out those owners manuals, let me know what you got. If you got one in pieces, that would really be the best.

[Shadowflame]

Ok, for those who really want to be confused, check this out:


SS 750 TRANSMISSION INFO


Primary reduction- 1.666 – means that engine spins 1.666 times to equal 1 turn of input shaft of transmission. Example: 1000 engine rpm divided by 1.666 = 600. So 600 is the rpm of input to the transmission, while the engine is spinning 1000 rpm.

1st gear: 3.166- by using engine rpm 1000, divided by 1.666 equals 600 rpm on the input shaft of the transmission, we further divide 600 by 3.166 (of first gear). Leaving us with 189 rpm on the output shaft of the transmission.

Final reduction – 2.411- means that transmission output shaft spins 2.411 times to equal 1 turn of the rear sprocket. SO, we take that 189 rpm from the transmission, and divide it by 2.411 of the final reduction, and it gives us 78 rear sprocket rpm.

Figuring our actual speed - Since the rear sprocket is connected to the rear wheel directly, we also have 78 rpm at the rear wheel. Given a diameter of 25” on the rear wheel, we multiply 25 x pi, or 3.14, which gives us 78.5” of travel for each revolution of the wheel. SO, divide 78.5” travel by 12”, to obtain measurement in feet, which is 6.5 feet. Multiply 6.5 feet, which is the distance traveled by the wheel in one revolution, by 78 rpm of the wheel, will give us 507 ft/min. Multiply 507 ft/min by 60 minutes, which gives us 30,420 ft/hr. Now, 30,420 ft/hr divided by 5820’ (feet in a mile) nets us approximately 5.23 MILES PER HOUR!

So, 1,000 engine rpm in 1st gear gives us about 5.23 mph. Sound about right? That’s just about idling in 1st gear.

Therefore, 4000 engine rpm gives us about 65 mph in fifth gear, in our stock configuration.

If we changed fifth to 0.88, at 4000 rpm we would now have 76 mph, a change of 11 mph.

Now, there’s a lot of decimal points left off, and there’s a lot of assumptions being made here, like the tire height, it’s probably closer to 26 inches, but I can’t be sure without a caliper or some other way to precisely measure the diameter. But you get the point here.

FORMULA’s

Engine speed divided by primary reduction, divided by gear ratio, divided by final reduction, = rear sprocket RPM

Wheel diameter multiplied by PI (3.14), = circumference of the tire in inches, divided by inches in a foot (12) = circumference of the tire in feet, multiplied by rear sprocket RPM =feet per minute traveled. Multiplied by 60 minutes(1 hr) = feet per hour. Divided by 5820 feet (1 mile) = MPH

[cryin'wolf]

Beat you to it Jason, the gearset configuration is unique to our models. No other Honda has anything close. The FV700 is the closest but still to different to use. the dogs or protruding parts on the side of the gears that lock up the next gear is just as important to look at as the dimensions of the gear itself. I'm looking into the 5th Gear set of a Yamaha XS650 as it appears to fit dog to collar wise, but still need to find ratio info, and actually get my hands on one as I don't know if the spline pitch is the same.

[Shadowflame]

Damn the bad luck. Ok, so there is a possiblity that we can find this in another manufacturer. How you have found out your info is beyond me, maybe I just don't know how to use the web. Once again my ignorance is without question. Using my figures above, and adding a smaller rear sprocket, one inch smaller to be exact, would change our final drive to 2.10. So, stock, 4000 rpm = 65. New, .88 fifth, and 1 inch smaller rear sprocket gives us 3000 rpm @ 65. Now, who would be interested in that?

[cryin'wolf]

For anyone with deep pockets Nova Transmissions makes a close ratio 6 speed kit for you. It comes with a new shift drum, forks, and input shaft with gears and dogs, and new gears, to use with your stock bushings, spacers, circlips, and countershaft. Cost 1000 pounds + tax and shipping. Count on it costing $1600 U.S.

[Shadowflame]

you got a link?------nevermind, found it http://www.novaracing.co.uk/default.htm

Have you contacted them about this six speed? cause it looks like they only have those available for crotch rockets. But the possiblity of getting them to cut us anysize gearset is a great hope. Instead of a measly .88 overdrive, imagine something like .76. Wow, let me do some more wonderful math.

[BamaKC]

I sent a message to the mfg. to see if they have or are willing to deal with US based transactions. I'll let you know what I hear. This is great!

[cryin'wolf]

I talked to a couple guys I about cashin' in on some over due favors. I'm getting the proposed fifth gearset designs on cad. Now if my crankshaft project, which is going in for final cut (I hope) Friday doesn't put me in the red with the machinist, I can get him to load the design and cut a couple gears, when we need them. Anybody able to get 3" dia. 15-5 ph round stock free, really cheap, free. Did I ask about free? I can heat treat an entire lot of them.

[Shadowflame]

I'll do some digging, can't promise, but I'll try. Just curious, how much would some 3" stock cost if we had to buy it?

[cryin'wolf]

.75" X 5' $1000. didn't bother to check other sizes. will tomorrow though.

[Shadowflame]

hooooolllyyy Shiiiiitttt!!!!!!!!

[BamaKC]

Cryin,

Hope that works out...got a message back from the Brits... they said the trans they have would not be something you'd want on a road bike. End of story.

[Shadowflame]

Bama, I had tried to email those guys, but I didn't have any luck. I'm glad you got some info. I kinda looked over their site pretty good, and it actually looked like their transmission were even lower geared then what they were replacing. Oh well. Another dead end. I checked out a couple other sites that did some gearset work and fabrication, but none that I could get to agree to do some R&D on this project. Basically, we have to come up with our own numbers and shit, submit it to them, and then, if, and only if they can feasibly turn a profit from it, would they even think about it. The initial cost of tooling would have to be offset by some serious purchases. I for one only need one gearset- lol. Cryin Wolf is on to something on his end, I'm kinda putting all my eggs in his basket, so to speak. I am already in over my head on this, outta my league. I'm not a machinist by trade, and I only have very limited metallurgy knowledge. Basically, I'm a dumbass. I encourage any and all who have input or know someone with input on this mod. It's not my idea anymore, it's gone way beyond that. I just put the bug in ya'lls ears and minds and let it run. We'll call it the Overdrive Mod. It's great to see some interest in this too. Keep it comin'.

[cryin'wolf]

here's a diagram to help explain how our transmissions work

[cryin'wolf]

Okay motorheads -

We got a righteous dude among us that is willing to make these gears. How many of you wan't them. Please let me / us by adding to this thread, only if you are serious, have money to use for this as a future mod, or would just like to donate to a kick ass roots level mod by your friends and fellow members, because your input will be used to figure the cost and payment for material & labor.

Thanks in aadvance,

Gary

[Shadowflame]

Count me in Gary,,,, My pockets aren't that deep but I am on the quest for the holy grail of speed, and power... I believe our past numbers showed about 400 rpm change with .88 overdrive, but I'll have to refigure with actual measurements of the new gears when they are made. Add in a 36 tooth rear sprocket and we could see as much as 7-800 rpms changed in fifth gear.

[Shadowflame]

Is there No one else?

[Mr.Sinister]

How much$$$$ are we talkin here?

[RustyJake]

Something like this would really be cost dependant. What level would the payback value be in the mod itself. Being that it's something that hasn't been done, there are a lot of variables to considered.

[cryin'wolf]

Money, Yeah it's always a big factor, so I will break this down the best I can. The metal costs 3 - 5 bucks a pound + shipping, which will vary by weight. Since I don't know how many want to do this the actual cost can't be determined yet. The cost of the labor of cutting the metal into gears and heat treating and tempering them can't be determined until we have a known # of gears to be made. (Brian if you read this please feel free to chime in on the labor end or anything else for that matter) So how many of us want these gears will detirmine the over all cost, which will be split equally among those getting the gears, except for Brian whom I assume could make some for himself once he has the design. Regardless, I don't believe anyone involved is looking to profit from this, but rather just get a overdrive 5th gear providing a about 15 - 25% reduction of fuel consumption @ a cruise speed of 70 - 80 mph. Truthfully I don't expect the gearsets to cost more than 100 dollars, which is more than reasonable for a mod like this. Anyway the gist of it all is the the individual cost can't be determined until it is known how many are to be made.

The material cost breaks down like this.

3" Round Stock for each gear set $2.99 a pound (as listed in old catalog)

3" actual length needed for each gearset - minus waste (unknown amount for machine set up)

3" length weighs 6.15 pounds.

pre shipping cost of material $18.39 @ assumed cost of $2.99 per Lb

Labor cost:

Unknown until # of gears to be made is known.

I hope that this clarified things and didn't confuse the shit out of anyone.

Gary

[navillustoo]

Gary,
One thing I need to mention at this point is, if the finished gear diameter is 3 inches, I would need about 4" diameter stock to burn them. I'll need 1/2 inch or more for clamping the material in the wire machine to burn them out. Another thing to consider, I don't need round stock to make round gears. A chunk of flat stock the proper thickness or thicker would work better and probably would be cheaper than round material. Personally, I would prefer to use flat stock. It'd be much easier to hold the workpiece. Yes, it'll leave more scrap, but it'll make my job much, much easier. Actually, if using flat stock, a 3" square piece would allow me to hold it in the corners and I could burn a gear very close to 3" diameter. The key with the wire machine is that the wire should always stay in the material until it finishes burning the contour. If it exits and re-enters the material, it causes problems, so it works best if the material is slightly larger than the finished product.
Hopefully, you haven't bought any round stock yet! Check into the flat stock pricing and see if it isn't a bit cheaper than round stock.

Brian

[dakota99rt]

If you can do a set for an 1100 spirit Ill buy a set, but for you guys with the small shadows you might want to see if the 1100 gear sets will work. Acording to the Honda shop manual the ratios for the 1100 are
1st gear - 2.375
2nd gear - 1.391
3rd gear - 1.037
4th gear - 0.888
5th gear 0.766

With the shaft drive you also have
Primary reduction - 1.692
secondary reduction - 0.806
third reduction (output drive reduction) 1.059
final reduction - 3.091

Now if I could just find somone to make me a ring and pinion set...........

[Its_on_ now]

Something to think about in this project... Noble as it may be, these would still be prototype parts. Not attacking the idea, and it is a GREAT idea, but some of us do not have disposable cash/parts lying around to fix it if things go bad.

When speaking to the machinist, explain to him that you are experimenting here and find out what it would cost to do one set (this gives the rest of us an idea on what it will cost). If he starts getting bitchy, remind him that you are part of a riders' group that is 1000+ strong:bucktooth and there are quite a few that are very interested in this project. He will be all the rage and get some serious business out of this, as you will refer him to EVERYONE!!!

***NOT TRYING TO DEMEAN ANY MACHINISTS OUT THERE*** If I remember how this works, after watching a lot of Discovery Channel, the machinist puts the stock into the machine and programs the dimensions into the computer using a CAD drawing. The computer then creates the drawing ,there might be more to it, but if he does it by hand, things might be just barely out of alignment.

Personally, I like the idea of this mod, but wouldn't want to put the conciderable money/faith/experimental parts in my bike that I was not part of from day one (ie - made myself with my own two hands). If this was a tried and true fix, I would be highly interested since I don't want to lose the rest of my gearing...

[Shadowflame]

This fifth gear mod is totally experimental, it has not been proven, and there are no promises. This has not been a machinists idea to do this, The guys like Navillustoo and Cryin Wolf are SHADOWRIDERS, not really business men on here trying to make a sale. We approached Brian with the idea to do this, and he is tryin to help us. The whole purpose of this thread is to generate interest in this possible modification to the Shadow Spirit 750's Fifth gear ratio.

I for one want to do this, I will be a test guinea pig. I will lay out some initial cash to get a gearset made, then I will photograph and do a complete write up of the job, and all that is included cost wise. I want to thank Brian for helping us out, he has the knowledge I lack for this kind of thing.

Brian, Pm me and tell me what you need for me to get a gearset made and shipped to me. I'M IN !!

[Shadowflame]

If you can do a set for an 1100 spirit Ill buy a set, but for you guys with the small shadows you might want to see if the 1100 gear sets will work. Acording to the Honda shop manual the ratios for the 1100 are
1st gear - 2.375
2nd gear - 1.391
3rd gear - 1.037
4th gear - 0.888
5th gear 0.766

With the shaft drive you also have
Primary reduction - 1.692
secondary reduction - 0.806
third reduction (output drive reduction) 1.059
final reduction - 3.091

Now if I could just find somone to make me a ring and pinion set...........

Dakota, this was an idea we tossed around for a bit, using another gearset that was already in production. The problem was that we couldn't find another bike with the same size shafts and spline count to make it work, and we lacked information, as Honda is very tight lipped with their engineering specs. What little info we do have about the actual gear set dimensions are provided by Cryin Wolf, as he is already in the process of other engine mods. If you know some of the dimensions of those gearsets, we might could utilize some of those gearsets.

[gui_tarzan]

I wondered about doing this very thing but I would like to know if there is actually clearance inside the housing to pull this off? I haven't seen it mentioned yet. I also need to drop my RPMs on the xway and really don't want to change the rear sprocket. I can't believe Honda didn't consider this when they designed it.

[Disfncnl1]

If this mod would work for a ACE 1100 i would puches a set and not think twice about it...hell i'll even be a prototype tester.

[BB494]

Read all of this, kind of has got me curous. hmmmm.

[ickmak]

Read all of this, kind of has got me curous. hmmmm.


I think someone is being a post whore:grin: don't worry I won't tell:laugh4:

[BB494]

I think someone is being a post whore:grin: don't worry I won't tell:laugh4:

can't blame a guy for trying!

I know I am covering old ground, but I know the gearset from a VT750 Aero definitely won't work.

Anyone seriously having something machined up?

[jrod1970]

can't blame a guy for trying!

I know I am covering old ground, but I know the gearset from a VT750 Aero definitely won't work.

Anyone seriously having something machined up?

just the cost of the work to be done must be............:sad:

[BB494]

just the cost of the work to be done must be............:sad:

I was just thinking that while my engine is out and my top end is dissasembled, now would be a good time. Hell, I shouldn't worry, my 39t works great, I can go smaller yet, and I will have more power.

[jrod1970]

I was just thinking that while my engine is out and my top end is dissasembled, now would be a good time. Hell, I shouldn't worry, my 39t works great, I can go smaller yet, and I will have more power.

you want off the line, or do you want high way?
man, i cant wait till i get my hands on a 750!:thumbsup:

[Shadowflame]

Well BB, that is why I wanted you to look at this thread. There's alot of "if's" and no one has a set machined up yet to verify if this whole thing will actually work or not. Like I said before, It's kinda stalled out. I wonder if there are any other Hondas out there that would have some gearsets that would interchange with the SS's? It would sure beat getting something machined. I haven't heard from Cryin Wolf or any of the other brains on this project in awhile, I hope they're all ok.

[BB494]

you want off the line, or do you want high way?
man, i cant wait till i get my hands on a 750!:thumbsup:

Looking for the best of both worlds. Honestly, I have run the 39 for about 4000 miles, and like it. I'm sure something like a 37t would kill the bottom. The 39 is only noticable 2 up from a dead stop.

BUT a lot of people swear by the 38s and 37s, so who knows.